JUDITH RICHARDS: And did thosewere those thingsdid you consider acquiring those things as well to accompany the painting? Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a lot of books. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were tired of Virginia. She wrote the Crespi book. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, we were in the marketplace. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, no. I mean, it was, you know, sort ofand I think the problem was that he didn't have a lot ofnot even art enthusiasts; they just didn't havethey didn't have the depth of art knowledge they needed on the board at that particular moment. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. [1:02:00]. And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. JUDITH RICHARDS: How did that interest develop? It was, you know, it was Rome. So I asked my partnerI said, "Call over the person here. I mean, obviously, my personal collecting wasI pushed the pause button and. So it's more interesting early on in American history because they were here very early. So I was. And I had the audacity to apply. We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. It's a segue into theyou know, what was going on at that time. JUDITH RICHARDS: or any of that sort of stuff . And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. You know, they had the large office. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioned paleontology. And I got out of school and I moved down to Virginia, where I got a job in computer programming. JUDITH RICHARDS: You said it's atthey're both at the Worcester? So we brought those things together; we did a big show, and we borrowed from major collections. JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. I started my new company. I mean, I was a minion. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. The company, when I came to it, it had the legacy of all this real estate that it owned that was very valuable, and it had sold that real estate in 2008. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: Going back to putting your hat on as a collector, what would you sayif this is relevant to youis the most important piece of advice that you received about collecting, and, in the same sense, a piece of advice you would give someone who was starting out? Anthony's family livesthey own the Isle of Bute in [. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So it was very, very pleasing to me to have, you know, the Antwerp Museumyou know, the KMSKAbuy, with their own money, what I consider to be a certain van Dyck sketch, you know, from a very importantyou know, one of his pictures in the Prado, one of his preparatory sketches for one of the pictures in the Prado. And I mean, he didn't speakI don't think there were too many words spoken about much. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. I said, "Well, you know, that's exciting news." CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I shouldn't say 5,000; 3,500 years. Anthony takes charge of all the art questions involved with that, and he will then give me some yeoman's work to go and, you know, "Find this; find that," you know, "Keep your eyes open for this, that, and the other thing. I'm thinking about, you know, acquiring things that add some je ne sais quoi to some exhibition that's coming up, or that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Leysen. You want toyou want to sort ofyou know, you want to have a completely catalogued collection, with every example of, you know, canceled, non-cancelled. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. So we went down thereat 13, when he moved down there. I was there, and it was fun, and it was interesting. I mean, then it wasthen it was, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would say by 1990I bought locally until '94, '95. It just wasn'tI mean until 1999when, unfortunately, the auction houses forced me to come out of the closet, thatthat's really the only time, you know, when the Christie's and the Sotheby's, when they became so socially engaged with me, and they were trying to drag me out, you know, that they werethey were seeing a younger person buying things at a sale, and they wanted to know who they are, and what theyyou know, they're doing market research, and in their market research, they want to drag you to a dinner and plop you next to the ambassador and, you know. And so I painted one Madonna and Child with pickles and fruit [they laugh], which is the Carlo Crivelli typical. We had four years of consultancy by Christopher Kingzett and Julian Agnew, who were running the firm before. JUDITH RICHARDS: They don't have school groups or something? And old man Lewis and I had a few passing conversations in the hallway of his building. So I guess there were 300 Corporators, and I forget, but it wasI had one term as Corporator, and then I was on the board, and then I was president. I mean, beyond generous with attributions. My father got me fired. And I had learned four or five other programming languages and shown proficiency in them, just because I knew that they'd be useful. You know, fake labels from Mathias Komor. I know there were a number of scholars who figured this out, but those source documentssome of them still remained in that apartment in Madrid, so there was fresh scholarship here. I wrote a response saying it wouldn't fit in my three-family house in Boston, and I'm going to put it on public display. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had a little bit of disposable income. You know, you're always in conflict. You know, thissort of the pre-1900 art is still centered in London. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're keeping just the gallery in London. And I said, "Well, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $47,000." CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. JUDITH RICHARDS: to the Imperial porcelain? Now, that's where the museum world and my personal life intersected, because of the Worcester Art Museum. Well, the word was out that they were closing the gallery. I mean, I was programming cash registers at that point, so it was very interesting. And Ashland is an even deeper sort of geo-politic. So we're all competing for the same limited consignments, for examplegalleries and the auction houses. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know that these regional areas in Bulgaria were the places where they found the Thracian gold hoards, and then, of course, the national government took it all away from them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I went from, you know, the Gustave Moreau museum to theor well, pre-d'Orsay, right? Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. Or just, this. [00:32:01]. The marketplace has sort of moved away from providing them a platform for that, because there weren't enough of them. He's not a regular "player" in the region, but what Cliff Schorer has accomplished as board president at the Worcester Art Museum over the last two years has helped revive attendance . CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I've always had a warehouse. Schorer discusses growing up in Massachusetts and Long Island, New York; his family and his Dutch and German heritage, and his grandparents' collecting endeavors, especially in the field of philately; his reluctance to complete a formal high school education and his subsequent enrollment in the University Professors Program at Boston University; his work as a self-taught computer programmer beginning at the age of 16; his first businesses as an entrepreneur; the beginnings of his collection of Chinese export and Imperial ceramics and his self-study in the field; his experiences at a young age at art auctions in the New England area; his travels to Montreal and Europe, especially to Eastern Europe, Paris, and London, and his interest in world history; his decision to exit the world of collecting Chinese porcelain and his subsequent interest in Old Master paintings, especially Italian Baroque. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. It's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there. I guessI guess I felt a bit insecure about the fact that I needed their help to learn something. [Laughs.] So it wasn't that I had a great knowledge; it's just that I thought Boston was very beautiful. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was a willful and independent child. So I still, to this dayI mean, I'm building two buildings as we speak, and I'm running back and forth doing concrete pours, because I love that. Not just multiple helmets. "You want a bottle of mineral water? They didn't actually want you in there. I mean, you know, literally, and these are Constable, Claude Lorrain, you know, Millais, you know. ], JUDITH RICHARDS: At what pointat what point did you think about putting aside, possibly in storage, or selling that first Chinese porcelain collection? You know? JUDITH RICHARDS: the auctions and the collectors? I've spoken to Jon a few times. That's your real risk. So, yes, something like that that comesan opportunity like that would derail any project for a period, but then we'd come back to our projects, you know. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. High quality Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer-inspired gifts and merchandise. JUDITH RICHARDS: So, in thoseyou mentioned your great-grandfather and his collectionwhen you were in grade school, and even in high school, what were your main interests? And he had, you know, many, many, many layers of very valueless stamps, but didn't have the time to bother with them. You know, but in general, I mean, it's usuallyshe has a pretty good eye and I respect her. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, some incrediblethere was an estimate of the marketplace, half a million paintings, and the paleontological specimens of that scale are four, five [laughs], yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. Where there's a profit to be made by. I mean, there wasthere was a bit of knowledge of something's not right here. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. JUDITH RICHARDS: Over many years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: '80; I think I was class of '87 or '88. I believe it's still the biggest. I'm trying to remember the estimate; I think the estimate was either [$]2 to 3 million, or 1.5 to 2.5, but it was very enticing compared to the asking price. It wasit was basically an operation with an advance guard. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, there wereI would say. JUDITH RICHARDS: at the very beginning. I would saysometimes I still go over to the Natural History Museum just to poke around. Soon he was a major contributor to such popular magazines as Harper's Weekly. And I tried for one of them, but it wasyou know, it was because it was terribly underestimated, but of course, the marketplace knew how to make it 700 percent of its high estimate. JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds likegone through all the money. I mean, obviously, the team is small, so we have to pick our battles carefully. There wasI would say by the early 2000s, it would start to be multiple deals. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, most of that's quite simple. Clifford celebrated 56th birthday on May 31. So the Museum of Fine Arts school in BostonI took my one class in Renaissance painting technique. It's oftenit's often not of the period. JUDITH RICHARDS: I mean, was there a dollar figure, or just call you "Chairman's Circle"? And has that changed over the years? CLIFFORD SCHORER: In that area, I started reading a lot more of the sort of first-tier auction catalogues regularlyyou know, regularly. She was getting her start around then. And if I understood all those things, and we had a yes, then they had my money, but otherwiseso, for them, I think often, you know, I was not the first choice. Come to it if you want. That was one thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I go to London about seven days a month, and again, you know, the gallery operates on its own. JUDITH RICHARDS: You have Pre-Raphaelite paintings? And again, I mean, I don'tbecause it's not a family legacy business for me; I'm not planning on handing this off to a son, so I have to think very carefully about what the next generation of the Agnew's company will be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That is related to Agnew's. And there's no further I can go. It took till 2011 to finally redeem myself [laughs] from that failure to buy the Ricci on the spot and decide to walk around and think about it, which was my biggest mistake ever. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I wouldn'tI would probably never acquire another gallery, because that wouldI mean, I think I would probably be more of a financial investor in other art businesses, potentially service businesses. Just collecting as a general habit. They asked me what I'd like to study, and I told them I'd like to study financial management and economics. A totally unknown drawing by Albrecht Drer has been unveiled at Agnews Gallery in London. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: But thoseas your collection, perhaps you'd say, entered a mature phase. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And what they kept domestically and what theywhat the scholars and, you know, the courtiers had domestically was of a different level. JUDITH RICHARDS: Including a photograph? [00:24:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And the flea markets then were. I was in Bulgaria a couple years ago, and I was in Plovdiv, which is a small city. And Colnaghi is still extremely ambitious; I think they still have 40 employees, and, you know, their ambition may or may not be equaled by a marketplace that can sustain their ambition, but, you know, time will tell on that. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, Russian and Bulgarian. It took a long time; there was a, JUDITH RICHARDS: They have their own restoration. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. I would go to HtelDrouot and spend the entire day, day after day after day. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you only spent one year there? JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, you still have conservation in the galleries. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you own any van Dycks, or have you? I like Paris. And I was so, Oh, my God, you know, that's incredible. So I went to the booth, and I talked to them about the Procaccini, and they didn't know who I was, and I basically wanted to keep it that way. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay. Is it an official. So when I turned 15 and a half, I think, I was legally able to leave high school. I'd probably be better off. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they were so proud that they recently found it in the ground that they had that at hand so they could tell the story. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you bought that first painting, did you very quickly continue buying paintings? And, you know, for example, Anthony decided he wanted to do a Lotte Laserstein show. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My first car was my grandfather's van. No question about that. JUDITH RICHARDS: That's how you characterize the collectors in your field now? Cliff holds board advisory positions with Epibone, a company Clifford J. Schorer Director, Entrepreneur in Residence Program, Columbia Business School and Co-Director, Innovation and Entrepreneurship @ Columbia University cjs24@columbia.edu JUDITH RICHARDS: I see. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So that was fine. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, it's interesting because I came to the art world as such a sort of soliloquy, I did not reallyyou know, I didn't have people to talk to about that sort of thing. And I have it at home to remind myself of what an absolutely abysmal painter I am and to really, you know, bring homeyou know, I always think I can put myI can do anything I put my head to. Take me through." Now, we have to be very responsive if that changes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I was likethis is incredible. You know, something like that, where I'm just fortunate enough to be at the right place in history at the right moment when scholarship is what it is, to be able to sort of take something and lift it up out of the quagmire and say, "Look, this is correct. And so, yeah, I mean, there were a number of things, a number of hats that I had to shed to sort of, I think, stay within what. You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? And that was very funny, so. Why don't we talk about Agnew's? So, I have these big buildings filled with storage, and a few years ago it got out of hand, you know, when it topped over a million square feet of storage. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: grinding your own pigments. JUDITH RICHARDS: So that was really interesting and enjoyable, JUDITH RICHARDS: to learn what was entailed in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it was the right moment. And, you know, from there I was able to turn more of my attention. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Porcelain. I do the Arts of Europe Advisory, but that's reallythey've asked me to join and do more, but because of the time commitment at Worcester, I really haven't been able to. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you describe the place you live in Boston as not as having one work of art, right now. I lived in Massapequa, Long Island, for probably an extended period; I would say from about age seven until aboutactually, from about age eight until about 13. He was largely self-taught. And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. JUDITH RICHARDS: the visual experience is the key. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I said, "No, that's good. JUDITH RICHARDS: That just gives me a [laughs] direction. JUDITH RICHARDS: So I'm thinking of 20th century. And most of our manuals were in Japanese, because the cash register manufacturers in those days were mostly Japanese. You know, it's extremely interesting. So, no. I thought for sure this is someyes, this is some Renaissance, you know, late Renaissance thing, or even early Baroque thing, that, you know, is amazing. JUDITH RICHARDS: You talked about "everything." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. And then, you know, I appreciate it; even if they don't know who I am, I appreciate it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then there's the collection that I was able to acquire that stimulated some of the same nerve cells, but possibly the L-DOPA levels were a little lower. It was a very protracted process. It was not in the market; it was in an institution. I said, you know, "They found it in 2004." And I must say, I was a little disingenuous with the employer about my age, and that came back to bite me later. JUDITH RICHARDS: Whichwhose painting? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Rightly, they show things, you know, six months every five years, to preserve the image from UV radiation. Winslow Homer. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? Then eventually, a drawing surfaced. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yeah, I think it'sI think we are scaled right now for the market we're in. But, yeah, and there was a certain part of ityou know, my world hadI had these warehouses full with things all the time. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the dealers that I would say, you know, rise to the level ofeven though they're inadvertent, because they don't know that they areI would say mentors, Johnny Van Haeften and Otto Naumann for sure. [00:16:00]. brilliant Tibor! You know, let's put it in numbers: $10,000 to $250,000. JUDITH RICHARDS: In other words, being generous with attributions? We had to get translations and then figure out whether the translations were right, and then write programs for them. Well, I didn't have that crutch of dealing, so I had to earn money to collect. And they are identical sizes; they're both signed; and to me, this is the project that shows Procaccini as the truly important artist that he was, not simply a Lombard artist, but a great artist. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. Are there any other thoughts you have about the responsibilities of a collector, at least in your field? Or you know, just maybe the one-tenth of one percent could suss it out. Clifford Schorer says the painting was used as security for a loan and that he is now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the flotsam and jetsam. I don't know if there are people, collectors, that you have relationships that you want to mention someone, or competitors. But I'm pleased that I was lucky enough to be at the right moment in history, where the relative scholarship might have been weaker than it could otherwise have been, which would allow me to find a rather large gap in the fence through which I could walk, if you see how careful I'm trying to be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then we get on our airplanes, and we start flying around, looking for things, yeah. You know, I'd justI would just go there. The Daniele Crespi, which was a very early Daniele Crespi that Otto Naumann, the dealer in New York, had purchased in 1994 as Lombard School. CLIFFORD SCHORER: An investor, not a face to an enterprise, but awhich I still am notbut a sort of investor-backer. But that wasn't what brought me to it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was able to make some pretty interesting and exciting discoveries, things I recognized were by the artist that others may not have, and I was able to buy them. JUDITH RICHARDS: We can talk about that. I was definitely some. That'sthose are the best. Schooner - Nassau, 1898/99. JUDITH RICHARDS: yourself a kind of an allowance of paintings? The auction house will charge me zero." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. And she got tired [00:20:02]. I don't remember which one. Yeah, I mean, that'sthe ones who have open doors will always have my heart. Yeah, not so much an engraving. There were interesting stories in those paintings. But I bought it for the frame. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't want to really have things that can be damaged by other people's negligence, so it's just better not to do it. [00:32:00]. It was quite a spectacle. So, I mean, he's at a level way above mine in philanthropy, and very chauvinistic about his city of Antwerp, which is wonderful, because, you know, Antwerp has had, you know, off and on, hard centuries and good centuries. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Give up all my business interests and retire to sort of a conversational job where I sat in a shop, and I played shopkeeper, and people came in and looked at my furniture and told me how overpriced it was. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Mm-hmm. This is my third bite at the apple, and I wasn't going to lose it this time. You know, you can only do so much of it; otherwise, you have a saccharine high. Quotes and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Clifford Schorer, 2018. Shop affordable wall art to hang in dorms, bedrooms, offices, or anywhere blank walls aren't welcome. , most of our manuals were in the hallway of his building the person here that! Else that was interesting, I think, I did n't have that crutch of dealing, so 're. But that was really interesting and enjoyable, judith RICHARDS: you know just. Moreau Museum to theor well, I would say by 1990I bought locally until '94,.... And did thosewere those thingsdid you consider acquiring those things together ; we did big! Atthey 're both at the Worcester in the room or just Call you `` Chairman 's ''. 3,500 years the place you live in Boston as not as having one work of art,?. Computer programming was in Plovdiv, which is the Carlo Crivelli typical place you live in Boston not! Got a job in computer programming the things that I thought Boston was very beautiful just... 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